Off Topical - in that sermon people are talking about today:

"Nibbles" (nibbles) 02/05/2018 at 12:10 • Filed to: None

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“...if you’re buying a house, it shouldn’t cost more than twice your income.”

It’s not double my income, though it is representative of the housing market. That Zestimate* tho

How many living in metropolitan areas could feasibly do this? Twice my income (and it’s a pretty good income) couldn’t buy a house in my shitty, shitty neighborhood. My house is worth more than double - it’s nearing over triple - my income. Thank gof I bought in 2012, right? RECESSION! BURSTING BUBBLES!

But seriously. Take your income, double it, and find something you’d be happy to live in for the rest of your life in your area. For me, I’ve already tried. Nothing but mobile homes, condos and vacant lots

ttyymmnn > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:28

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Remember, that speech was made in 1968. A lot has changed since then.

E90M3 > ttyymmnn 02/05/2018 at 12:29

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Really?

Sent from my iPhone.

Wacko > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:29

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really my house is worth almost 6 times my income.

I owe about 3 times my income on it.

Nibbles > ttyymmnn 02/05/2018 at 12:30

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Of course a lot has changed. I’m not questioning that. I just want to know what kind of homes y’all could find, in your area of choice, for double your income or less, and whether or not those homes would be something you’d be willing to live in for a large chunk of your life.

Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:32

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My income or my wife and I? Cause if it’s just mine; yeah we are talking crappy condo/townhouse. If it’s combined; it’s pretty spot on for my wife and I.

Nibbles > Wacko 02/05/2018 at 12:32

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We owe roughly double my income. We’re hoping to sell soon so we can put roughly 1x my income in our pocket for a short period until we use that 1x my income as a down payment on a house that is likely to be 4.5x to 5x my income

Nick Has an Exocet > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:32

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The single thing available for twice my income is a lot with no street access on a “35 degree grade”.

Nibbles > Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle 02/05/2018 at 12:33

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Not just your income. Your household income is good.

Unfortunately my household currently only has my income to work off of, which really kinda sucks

fintail > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:33

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This might have worked for the lucky generation (in terms of housing costs), I can’t imagine how it would work today. I use a workable mortgage:income ratio of around 3-3.5:1, and even then, it won’t work here unless you want a long long commute or a condo as old as me.

In my insane bubbly speculative casino sketchy money dumping ground of a real estate market, houses that were 3x income in 1985 are now 10-15x the equivalent income today.

vondon302 > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:34

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Your wife is supposed to be half your age and plus seven years too but I messed that one up also.

WilliamsSW > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:34

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That line struck me, too - my how much times have changed.

But, on the flip side, there’s no way in hell I would spend 1/2 of my annual income on a car - it’s actually quite a bit less than that.

ttyymmnn > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:35

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I see. In that case, our house, purchased 15 years ago, was probably about 2x our income at the time (I was working PT, my wife FT). Now, with three kids, it’s a bit small. But we’re not moving.

Nibbles > Nick Has an Exocet 02/05/2018 at 12:35

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Nice view tho

ttyymmnn > E90M3 02/05/2018 at 12:38

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Rally.

Nibbles > vondon302 02/05/2018 at 12:38

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How does that even

I’m doing the numbers and

Yes I’d reckon that’s supposed to be 1/2+7 at a specific point in time but I’m imagining the amazing fluctuating-age wife that somehow is near half your age at any given time

TheRealBicycleBuck > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:38

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Works for me. Our house to income ratio is about 1.5. We could get a lot more house at that ratio if we lived in a different market. We could also get a lot less house if we moved to New York or California.

Nibbles > ttyymmnn 02/05/2018 at 12:39

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But what about now? Anything meeting those criteria in your area?

Ash78, voting early and often > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:39

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This is way outdated advice. Sure, it’s okay, but it’s way too conservative as lending standards and asset prices have changed. Same with the car thing (half your income).

Doing things as a multiple of income will help manage your cash flow, but it almost ignores your balance sheet and the other source of cash flows: asset conversion.

This is basically like saying “To be a good football player, either pass or run the ball.”

ttyymmnn > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:40

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Probably not. We paid about $135k for our house 15 years ago, similar homes today are pushing $230k. It’s crazy.

nermal > ttyymmnn 02/05/2018 at 12:40

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Just look at how far trucks have advanced!

Nibbles > WilliamsSW 02/05/2018 at 12:41

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I’m actually surprised, thinking back to that loan. We bought our truck last year for, at the time, right near 1/2 my annual. Not too bad.

*My* car, on the other hand, was roughly 2% of my annual.

Brian, The Life of > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:42

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TIL there actually is a single family home in the San Diego area that costs (roughly) twice our household income. I just wouldn’t want to live there.

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/San-Diego-CA/fsba,fsbo,new,cmsn_lt/house_type/17004713_zpid/54296_rid/5000-300000_price/20-1172_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/33.146175,-116.594467,32.543919,-117.816696_rect/9_zm/0_mmm/

Quadradeuce > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:42

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When we bought our house, we were below that mark. Probably 1.5x our yearly income. It helps to be professionals DINKS in flyover country, and to buy a fixer-upper. Now we make more per year that we paid for our house, but also have 2 kids.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:42

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My house is 3x my income but with interest rates as low as they are that probably works out to about the same monthly payment on a 30 year fixed, as it did 30 or 40 years ago, maybe even less.

ttyymmnn > nermal 02/05/2018 at 12:43

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I’ll take the ‘68.

Nibbles > ttyymmnn 02/05/2018 at 12:43

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I hear ya, and it’s what I’m getting at. We paid a high $160 in 2012 and are looking at selling in the $320-330 range.

Quadradeuce > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:43

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Also, that trailer would be $15k in our market. I know, because my coworker’s mom just sold hers for that amount, and it was well maintained but about the same age as that picture.

Nibbles > Brian, The Life of 02/05/2018 at 12:44

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Chroist

nermal > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:44

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You just have to keep dumping them and getting new ones. Kinda like leasing a new BMW every three years. It’s not the cheapest way to do things, but that’s why you work harder.

Nibbles > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 02/05/2018 at 12:45

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Good point on the interest rate bit.

random001 > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:47

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Mine actually cost less, but is worth more. Paradox!

Nibbles > Quadradeuce 02/05/2018 at 12:47

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Funny thing. Our first foray into home ownership was a mobile home. Bought one a bit north for $10k. Lived in it for a couple years whilst pillaging the local Habitat for Humanity store for all kinds of bits, and sold it for $16k. There was our down for our first “real” house which we bought, at the *perfect* time, for $160k. Looking to sell that soon and expecting to see somewhere in the $320-$330k range.

Nibbles > Quadradeuce 02/05/2018 at 12:51

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I can’t wait to be professional DINKs

CalzoneGolem > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:52

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Our house is slightly more than twice my income but way less than twice our income and we have a 3.8 acre lot.

punkgoose17 > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:53

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I spent 2.25 times my income on my house in 2016. But I also have 1.6 times my income in student loan debt which was not a thing that happened in 1968.

Kiltedpadre > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:55

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One advantage of not living in a major metropolitan area is there are actually a lot of options that meet that criteria for me. This would be less than 1.5x and is a decent sized house with two car garage.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/506-Wilson-Park-Dr-Miamisburg-OH-45342/35001019_zpid/

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 12:56

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If you are counting our combined income my Wife and I did this. However we live in a town of 9,000 not exactly metropolitan.

But our combined annual is about 55,000 and our house was 80,000. Granted it’s also a 100 year old house on quarter of an acre.

Nibbles > CalzoneGolem 02/05/2018 at 12:57

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DAG

My wife would kill for that kind of acreage

Nibbles > Kiltedpadre 02/05/2018 at 12:59

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That’s downright livable

Except that kitchen. I abhor that kitchen

But otherwise, downright livable!

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > Brian, The Life of 02/05/2018 at 13:00

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Holy shit. That would be a 30,000 dollar house where I live. Maybe 40 if it’s nice on the instide And has a decent back yard.

CalzoneGolem > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 13:01

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When you live in the woods shit’s cheap son.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 13:01

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That’s even better than mine...my daily is about 4% of my annual

vondon302 > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 13:02

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When you first marry them lol.

Nibbles > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 02/05/2018 at 13:02

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That’s pretty cool though. My wife would kill me but I’d love to get an old house.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > WilliamsSW 02/05/2018 at 13:02

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Yeah I spend 1/4 my income on my car, and that just MY income not my families combined. I suppose if my wife also had a car payment hers would be higher but she also makes a fair bit more than me.

WilliamsSW > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 13:04

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That should be an Oppo award - DD value divided by annual income, who’s got the lowest?

That 2% is a front runner for sure!

WilliamsSW > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 02/05/2018 at 13:05

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Yeah, mine is around 30% of my own income, give or take, and my wife’s is less than that.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 13:06

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It’s not a nice old house, just an old one. I guess it has more character than your average prefab but remodel after, renovation, and being turned into a triplex, and then now a duplex. After all that a lot of the charm it probably once had is gone. It is great having rental income tho.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > WilliamsSW 02/05/2018 at 13:09

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Actually I was thinking about that wrong. I was just thinking monthly expense/monthly income. If your talking price of the car/annual income, than mine is pretty close to half my annual income. But that’s why I have a 4 year loan on it. Although I do plan on paying it off in two, but I couldn’t do that if not for my wife’s income, and our tax returns.

facw > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 13:10

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More specifically, you are not supposed to date anyone less than half your age plus 7. So if I’m 36, it would be weird for me to date someone younger than 25. There’s an implied upper bound as well, since the same “rule” would say that a 58 year old is the oldest person who could date me without it being creepy. So you get a range of acceptable options.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 13:11

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We actually did only pay about 2x our income for our house, we also live in the Midwest and don’t have kids yet.

facw > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 13:12

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The guideline I’ve read is to spend less than 5 times your household income, which fits a lot better, though even that can give you some pretty limited options in more expensive markets.

Mid Engine > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 13:14

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https://www.redfin.com/WA/Bothell/4209-164th-Pl-SE-98012/home/12490545

punkgoose17 > WilliamsSW 02/05/2018 at 13:15

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I am also at 2% but my car currently won’t pass inspection and has been in the driveway or garage for 6 months, and I am using my wife’s car. I do not win.

Future next gen S2000 owner > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 13:19

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The missus and I make decent money. We live in a crazy real estate market. I now realize why people stay in their home for decades. I like my mortgage.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 13:21

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To be fair that speech was given in a time when you could pay for college by just working part time. That being said, our house is a 1 1/4 of what we make in a year but I have a 90 minute commute one way so there is that.

punkgoose17 > Nick Has an Exocet 02/05/2018 at 13:30

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Just build 1o feet deep and 3 to 4 stories high. This building actually is probably 20 feet deep on the upper stories.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5777402,-79.5693899,3a,75y,317.02h,105.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5N1P7wbCvPonpR—kAY6Qg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

WilliamsSW > punkgoose17 02/05/2018 at 13:36

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Yeah, I think we’d have to include a requirement that the car is drivable. Hopefully you can get it to pass soon - or move to a state that doesn’t require it—

Nick Has an Exocet > punkgoose17 02/05/2018 at 13:37

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lol, do you have earthquakes where you live? The cost of building on that kind of land is insane.

punkgoose17 > WilliamsSW 02/05/2018 at 13:41

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I am stuck waiting for warmer weather so filler and paint will dry. It is much better than it was. I am hoping to slow down the rust.

punkgoose17 > Nick Has an Exocet 02/05/2018 at 13:48

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No we do not have earth quakes. There are not many major weather disasters where I live.

Also, we do have a fair amount of interestingly located old houses on the sides of hills built before cars were the major transportation.

Nibbles > punkgoose17 02/05/2018 at 14:09

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Don’t feel too bad. Mine’s currently in my in-laws’ garage (because we can’t afford a garage in this market lol) torn down to the block.

Nibbles > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 02/05/2018 at 14:12

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If I drove, I’d have an hour commute. For what amounts to 10 miles. And $250/mo for parking.

Nibbles > Mid Engine 02/05/2018 at 14:15

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That is at about the max commute (says 45 mins Bothell to Fed Way) that we’d consider. But how often would that 45 mins actually happen I wonder

Mid Engine > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 14:24

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Depends on the time of day, my wife works downtown Seattle and takes the bus. Commute time is about an hour, sometimes less. I work from home unless I’m visiting Microsoft or Amazon; I set up meetings to avoid the bulk of the traffic whenever possible.

The problem with the Puget Sound area is the costs keep going up exponentially, so you can sell your house and make a tidy profit but then ya gotta find somewhere to live. I’m happy my house has gone up $200k in three years, but if you can’t leverage the equity it doesn’t matter.

Nibbles > Mid Engine 02/05/2018 at 14:28

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We’re seriously considering Gig Harbor up to Olalla. Olalla wasn’t on my radar until this morning when I found a few gems on a shit-ton of land for very reasonable prices

Mid Engine > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 14:29

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Gig Harbor means bridge tools, that adds up quick. Take a look around the Carnation/Duval area, pretty easy to bounce to the 520 from there.

Nibbles > Mid Engine 02/05/2018 at 14:38

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Yeah we’ve talked about the tolls and are willing to eat that

Duvall is a beautiful little town! Drove through it a couple times and said “yeah this is probably too expensive for us”. Just looked up some homes there, and yup. It is. Their cheap homes are nicking the absolute top of our budget

Of course if we’re not paying tolls, I guess the budget could be amended a tad

Nibbles > Mid Engine 02/05/2018 at 14:42

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For reference, this is right up our alley

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/fsba,fsbo,new,cmsn_lt/house_type/23414737_zpid/5000-550000_price/20-2147_mp/globalrelevanceex_sort/47.490007,-122.494211,47.38853,-122.678576_rect/12_zm/

Mid Engine > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 15:09

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Love the shop, I’d buy it just for the outbuilding and land. Kitchen and bathrooms are a gut job though, that adds up quick.

Nibbles > Mid Engine 02/05/2018 at 15:20

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True dat. But they’re functional as is so I can work on those bits as I please.

CaptDale - is secretly British > Mid Engine 02/05/2018 at 16:23

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That is really pretty

Kiltedpadre > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 16:25

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Yeah, the kitchen is horrible. I’d need to see it in person to see if the kitchen could be expanded and improved reasonably.

CaptDale - is secretly British > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 16:30

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2.....

Mid Engine > CaptDale - is secretly British 02/05/2018 at 17:47

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Thanks, I’ve put an additional $30k in upgrades since I bought the house. Labor was free, cuz I do all sorts of handywork. Plenty big since it’s just me and missus

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 18:09

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I take the train, If I drove I’d be doing about 150 miles a day with about the same travel time.

Dogsatemypants > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 18:33

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I am finding empty lots and mobile homes that i would need to be 20 years older to meet the hoa requirements. F this. Moving to eastern wa, oregon, or iowa.

Dogsatemypants > Nibbles 02/05/2018 at 18:35

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It looks very nice. Modern but not boring. I like your taste.

Dogsatemypants > Dogsatemypants 02/05/2018 at 18:39

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Check this place in olalla

http://seattledreamhomes.com/unusual-home-for-sale-near-seattle-fairy-tale-house/

pip bip - choose Corrour > Nibbles 02/06/2018 at 04:34

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if that were the case, NO ONE on a working income here in Australia would own a home/mortgage.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Mid Engine 03/02/2018 at 21:43

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+$22o,000 of equity in just THREE YEARS...

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > Nibbles 03/02/2018 at 21:48

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Double our income couldn’t even afford what our current home is allegedly “worth.”

Mid Engine > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 03/03/2018 at 18:19

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I know, my tax increases have followed suit. What the fuck does Washington State do with all the extra tax money they’re taking in?

I’ve also put another $50k+ into the house, so yeah the value is pretty solid at the moment.